They ride nice, but don’t fill the needs/desires that I have for my family. Amen Brethren…. -Ever seen a train? They should last longer. Tow capacity is only one of the requirements I listed above. “…Durability is currently unknown, but potentially these electric motors could last a really long time….” The motors should be good with only one moving part but it’s the step down transmissions that become the weak spot due to all the ‘instant’ torque available. The 3 times price tag for the Tesla S tells you something about emissions also, possibly all the energy to produce aluminum and other exotic materials. Call me names, but it’s in Swedish and I don’t understand Swedish. http://jalopnik.com/they-drove-a-tesla-from-la-to-new-york-in-a-record-58-h-1699782187. That times 41-54.5 kg means 1.34 to 1.79 E9 joules, or about 370-500 KWH of energy. @Arthur – Tesla warranties their batteries for eight years, not even half of the so-called “expected lifespan.” I’m assuming that they have decent engineers and accountants; these people calculate the warranty period for a product based on the reality of when failures are going to start a steep climb. For example, a typical medium sized family car will create around 24 tonnes of CO2 during its life cycle, while an electric vehicle (EV) will produce around 18 tonnes over its life. There are no tar sands in Alberta unless you misuse the name for the substance to mislead people. Those batteries aren’t used to the extremes of an EV. The average age of a licensed and insured vehicle in North America is more than 10 years. If you can fit within the range and charge criteria and afford them they are a superior mode of transportation to an ICE car. You’re off by a factor of around ten, about 10,000-12,000 miles per year, figure 100,000 miles in eight years. The Leaf had some range degradation issues in hotter climates because they use an air-cooled battery. You should do a comparison of power trains to get an idea of the difference and assume all aspects of a car are equal. Anything is possible, but you need evidence to justify such a proposition. Mark: look up “Ad Hominem” on Wikipedia. I doubt this, either way. I do need to acknowledge that there is no mileage limitation on the battery/drive train warranty, just the 8 year time limit. It was produced for the Austrian army in the 1780s. A mechanical differential; limited slip or whatever, will decide itself on the inside versus outside wheel driving torque, which affects road holding and handling. A Tesla model X costs 5.8 cents per km to run based on charging the battery at a home supply @ 25 cents per kWh (Australia). I just hated it being garaged and not used while I am in China. But these results show that one should not think of choosing an electric car with a larger battery than is necessary,” he says, pointing out that manufacturers should also address this in the design of instruments. Meaning that the “lifetime pollution cost savings” of a Tesla over an Audi A7 Quattro is about $65. 12 years later my Prius is still going on the same batteries…Based on this can I now say I drive a near zero emission car and a gasoline vehicle 12 years old is just that, a polluting, gas guzzling vehicle.. It’s only near zero emissions if the electricity you charge it with is near zero emissions. Of course, a proper cost/benefit analysis is not a strong point of any left leaning ideologue and anything pushed by green interests is most assuredly bereft of any kind of proper cost/benefit analysis. Nano technology techniques offer no such benefits (at least over the next 20 years.) One commentator above wonders about fire trucks. that the Tesla S battery costs 2000 gallons of gas to produce, because over its 16 year life its only going to cause about 3000lbs pounds of CO2 when a car will cause 200,000lbs from fuel alone over that same 200,000 mile range lifespan. Once everyone realizes that CAGW is bunk, there will be no point pursuing ammonia as fuel. 1. I consider the CO2 calculation suspect. This study focused on the production of the battery, something the gas powered vehicle won’t have at all. You stripped everything away and got to the ‘bottom line.’ Period. By their numbers and doing the math, vehicles that get under 30mpg will end up paying less taxes when substituting per mile tax vs per gallon tax then they currently do. Of course an EV is a simpler system but is it actually much simpler in terms of cost to produce and what do you mean by ‘much’? Back in the late 1970s someone quipped: There are liars, there are damned liars, and then there are battery chemists. At the unsubsidized ‘green’ price of about .50 per KW-hour, it will cost $50 to fill your 100 KWhr battery pack and from a 50A 220V circuit will take more than 9 hours which gets you about 200 miles if you have a light touch on the accelerator. Few comprehend the enormous line loss through the grid when a remote power source is used to recharge an electric car. I do wish the cars weren’t subsidized. – Thus, solar is far less cost-efficient and practical as a replacement source for powering EVs. The claim to glory for Tesla etc is how Co2 clean they are. I don’t think they’re there, yet, but EVs are starting to get to the point where they make sense for some people (short distance commuters). In fact, they may well be responsible for the article. Not being a huge fan of EVs, these numbers are somewhat surprising for me — maybe we ARE getting closer to seeing practical electric cars (once the costs come down, range improves, and infrastructure is established for fast and convenient recharging). Read more: “The potential of electric cars’ main advantage”. The drive torque is highest when the rotor is totally stalled. Is this better? Huge hopes have been tied to electric cars as the solution to automotive CO2 climate problem. Izzat picture really a Tesla model X. So I need to see some reliable numbers to convince me that the EV is massively cheaper to make. Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions. You hit the nail on the head: To be able to afford a “renewable energy” production and delivery system you first need the energy system we already have; if you want an electric car, you first need a conventional car. – 2 adults driving 40 miles per day, each with a 2017 Volt will use ~18kWh of electricity — or almost HALF of their home’s solar capacity Compare that to three fires from some 20,000 Tesla cars. Firstly I would be very sceptical about anything from Tesla to do with time. The electric supercar’s top speed is 194 mph It is not a “luxury item, and has seen much use, though only 78,000 miles now.). Nissan Leaf estimated total lifetime emissions from manufacture, estimated charging emissions, and scrapping — 31 tonnes. I would have kept it longer were it not for the rust damage that occurred in Ohio during the last 10 years (originally a California vehicle). The tool shows that a medium-sized electric car with a battery produced in an average EU country and driven in the UK will generate 61 per cent less CO2 … That is better than conventional cars on the road today, to be sure, but it is far from zero. That’s why Alphabet, Apple, etc. I’m having a hard time believing it takes 500-plus KWH of energy to make a 1 KWH Li-ion battery, even if half the energy is converted to electricity with combined generation, transmission, distribution, and utilization efficiency (converted to low voltage DC) of only 25%. Bill Murphy: I use the electric car scheme here in Paris because 1) you are guaranteed a parking space, a true luxury in this overcrowded city; 2) it’s a handy backup for when my car is off the road – clutch wore out last week; 3) I get something back on my taxes; the scheme is highly subsidized; 3) there is some sort of trick which ensures the radio is always tuned to my favorite station; 4) also I love CO2, so good to hear I’m contributing more to the atmosphere by using the service. Over the years I’ve followed a number of technologies: Lotus = 900 kg. Any time now…soon…it’s just around the corner…wont be long…maybe when they do turn up they will be packed to the hilt with all those great big storage batteries that are gonna store mammoth amounts of power and will run big cities like as easy as pie. michael For example, a typical medium sized family car will create around 24 tonnes of CO2 during its life cycle, while an electric vehicle (EV) will produce around 18 tonnes over its life. Uh-oh! “…When they figure out how to tax the electrics equivalent to gasoline taxes they won’t look nearly as good. Those facing the approaching car had to warn those with backs to it. For a large percentage of autos to be EVs, there will have to be plazas for them that will have this sort of throughput — call it the “velocity” of ‘covfefe’ or something. To compare, one must use the same units. coal emits 50% more CO2 than diesel /sarc. The picture I get is of a healthier, more abundant biosphere, as more sequestered CO2 is returned to our earthly atmosphere! When I drive an EV I will not be helping the environment as much. Proof by assertion is not proof. The battery of an EV is simply the “fuel tank.” It’s a fair assumption that manufacturing impacts of the rest of the components of both types of vehicles will be similar. It wasn’t clear. Yeah, it’s so cool to have a car that everybody else helps pay for. The only solution would be EVs where you lease the battery. http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0702/sammym~3.jpg. Good point, Bill. Try to replace all the vehicles on the road in less than 20 years, and the result would be a mammoth stranded asset. The urban planners better get going right now cos city centers are going to look very different if electric vehicles are to work. Unless gas costs were outrageously high enough to offset the monthly payment and insurance cost of owning an EV they will not be on my radar when I look at cars. For each kilowatt-hour of storage capacity in the battery, emissions of 150 to 200 kilograms of carbon dioxide are generated in the factory. The Tesla S is heavier than a Chevy Impala so it probably takes even more emissions to manufacture a heavier car in addition to the emissions to manufacture the battery. Lastly, there are the energy costs of distribution of the refined fuel (diesel and gasoline) for conventional ICE vehicles. . Parking lots. The Sync rude project was initially built when crude was 12 dollars a barrel. I’d bet most petrol vehicle fires come about as a result of high speed crashes caused by drink-driving, car-theft and from vehicles which are old and in a poor state of repair. Manufacturing an EV including batteries – 25 tons CO2, Manufacturing an ICEV – 16 tons CO2” No big deal. The top of the range Model S will out drag any Lambo or Ferrari at highway speeds and has a single gear ratio so no stirring of cogs. And since A8s don't automatically percolate their … These studies have been done already, an example is summarised here; It doesn’t matter where the force originates. I also like the fact that I don’t need to re-map the FI, adjust the valves, change the oil etc. manufacture of combustion engine vs. electric motor Of course if you factor in their relatively high prices …. So, I would like to ask you the very same question you posed but in singular fashion…Did you actually read the study? This story, and mentioning WUWT just occurred on Rush …. Which will be completely wrong. The cost per mile should also be measured in expenses for dealing with smog, such as health problems, etc. 3g would take you from 0-97 in one second. Anyone else bother to read the report? G. Mark W. “we see on P25” refers to page 25 of the report. Average car “body and suspension” lifetime is … only 6-8 years. Eveyrbody makes assumptions that support their view. Like, permanently. The air rifle had several benefits over the black power rifle it was a repeater, and silent. I am waiting to replace my 1999 Subaru Outback with a dual powered (solar/wind) car. Storage batteries aren’t the answer. I consider the CO2 calculation suspect. Okay, how about “of more than 0.6 tonnes of carbon dioxide”? Alas, man-made CO2 is not the culprit of Global Warming. CA law included propulsion batteries for hybrids and PEVs in the mandatory warranty period for pollution associated hardware…. OTOH, the vast majority of mile I put on my car are from much shorter daily commutes. Although an electric car battery is considered redundant once it only retains 70-80% of its original capacity, many of them function after removal from vehicles and can therefore be converted for use with solar PV systems. The range of values estimated for emissions from battery production varies widely in the literature: In an answer on Sustainability.SE I cited a 2011 study ("Life Cycle Environmental Assessment of Lithium-Ion and Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries for Plug-In Hybrid and Battery Electric Vehicles") giving the highest estimate I could find. so that’s solved that, then. Real world data is showing even more. To illustrate. Did you really think than an EV was somehow nearly 65 times more energy efficient (fossil fuels dominate U.S. energy production) than an ICE vehicle as suggested by your comparison of 1.4 metric tons to 90.9 metric tons? http://www.ivl.se/download/18.5922281715bdaebede95a9/1496136143435/C243.pdf – In January, the home array’s daily output is ~15.5 kWh — or less than that used by driving, alone. Diesel and coal do. I can’t find the transcript but this story and “Watts Up With That” were mentioned on the Russ Limbaugh show today. A Tesla and a regular gasoline powered vehicle will have a similar amount of aluminum, steel, and rubber for about 90% of the vehicle. The result was 2.7 years for a battery of the same size as Nissan Leaf and 8.2 years for a battery of Tesla size, based on a series of assumptions. The writing is on the wall for steam carriages. ” and never will be. Even before you buy the car, CO2 emissions equivalent to 5.3 tons and 17.5 tons, respectively, gets produced. And that 6-8 year car lifetime is for typical low and mid-income families stretching a car who DO NOT buy expensive high-end luxury cars to IMPRESS their friends and eco-peers that will be replaced in 3-4 years with the newest, latest and greatest (actually gets better electronic mileage to be useful!) Many of the components used in sophisticated electronics are downright toxic – as are parts in ICE vehicles. Again, the point is that manufacture of the engine , exhaust and transmission are also required for a standard car. Work from home. It’s always amusing how these things we know to be true are such a surprise to those who don’t want them to be true. Manufacturing an EV including batteries – 25 tons CO2, Manufacturing an ICEV – 16 tons CO2 Your comment is both unfortunate and pa…, I can't get this article to open on Google Chrome.…, My latest edition of the Hitchhiker’s Guide To The…, Hi Herb. You can’t close down all the coal and gas plants, create a complex grid and then expect ‘renewable’ power to cost the same as it does when being subsidised by an essentially free distribution grid. because they are. Electric cars produce less CO2 than petrol vehicles, study confirms ... A Mini Electric car next to the production line at the BMW plant in Cowley, near Oxford. There is no solar power at night and little on many days, so the plant shuts down?? Also I don’t know why you need to have 650 horsepower just to go to the grocery store. jmac – yes if you routinely do 800 miles a day EVs are not yet for you. Secondly, no Teslas have been around for as long as 10 years, let alone 19. The motors that drive the 4 wheels a re comparable to the engine so it is apples to apples. I never did use them in the field. I believe that my son’s future will be better served by visiting our National parks and other areas with our travel trailer than by avoiding a few pounds of CO2 in the atmosphere and thousands of lost dollars from opportunity cost. Fair enough. – 1992 Lexus LS 400 (250,000 miles, glider trailer tow car) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBUl7oT9sA Wow, you specialize in bad comparisons, don’t you. The large emissions range primarily depends on production methods and the type of electricity used in the battery manufacturing process. Does it exist in English? That is the expected, nameplate advertised lifetime. I drive an EV. Are you going to power them with your solar panels Elon? It just goes on and on. And road trips would be a major hassle given the short range and the slow charging. No “body and suspension” problems. But to understand the importance of battery size, two standard electric cars on the market, Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model S, have batteries of approximately 30 kWh and 100 kWh respectively. I explained that electric cars made in a place where power is derived from nuclear plants, and run off that power produce less pollution. The mere fact that replacing an electric car’s batteries is extremely expensive give you a good idea that producing them entails releasing a lot of CO2. – Energy “mileage” for a 2017 Chevy Volt: 4.4 miles per kWh Every one of them have to drive 500+ miles continuously and only need to stop for a 2 minute fill up while pissing on the side of their car. Here’s an article speculating on ‘bunker’ ammonia as a maritime fuel. -The bottom line is that YES… anybody who understands the basics of ANY industrial fabrication-understands that there is a carbon cost. Just raise the gas tax about $1 every few years. The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the battery factory consists of more than half of the fossil fuels. In fact an EV costs 50-100% more than a comparable FF car. Certainly that will impact their Typical hard rock lithium ore grade is 1%. By the way: Do you see how absurd calculating with averages can be? Lorcanbonda: The yearly distance 1224 miles is calculated in swedish miles. When your fire department is running its vehicles as EV’s get back to me. John Especially laughing hard because I just suffered a battery failure yesterday with a Li-on emergency car jumper, which was bought less than 5 years ago and used for it’s intended purpose 3 or 4 times in those years. The only thing that could ever make a large number of people purchase an EV or for these bandits to become cheaper than the internal combustion engine stars of transport. Don’t take vacations. The reality is much closer to being a factor of 2. To a 68 yr old juvenile, maybe, but not to a car buyer looking for basic transportation. State and federal gas taxes in California are $0.56/gallon or less than 2 cents per mile for a comparable ICE car. Surely the issue here is not the comparison between E.V and I.C.E for how good they compare for Co2 emissions. The Battle for the Truth about Global Warming, “…invaluable” – Steven F. Hayward, The Weekly Standard, “…changed the world and is one of the most influential resources on global warming. I don’t know what a KWh costs in CA, but I can readily look up gas prices… Put up your straw man elsewhere. “If that renewable energy weren’t being used by the battery factory, it would be used by something else.” The battery in my hybrid lasted for ~9 years and was still going strong when I traded it in for a new car this year. (Plus you are going to have issues of trust. According to the LCA, the Diesel generates 29g CO2/km while a comparable EV generates 57g CO2/km. The battery production and the complex extraction of raw materials are responsible for this. In Sweden, the power production is mainly from fossil fuels, nuclear, and hydropower and why lower emissions had been achieved. But the Tesla quick charge stations certainly make Teslas less cumbersome for long distance travel than I had previously thought. Heck, those scrounging up quarters to buy enough gas to make to their next pay check could end up paying all road tax and not having money left over for gas with this system. While, If your Tesla runs out of power (total depletion) 20 feet from the plug, you have a brick until the tow truck gets there and drags you to the plug. Better several mid sized and small. Yes, according to … Maybe in 20 years, sure, but not in the near future. We could keep burning fossil fuels, or embrace Nuclear. Where I live in the northern plains the electric rates, gasoline and road taxes are all quite a bit cheaper but the ratio is about the same. Well O.K. I am not against EVs per se. Answer: None. The article says 17.5 tons per battery pack so divid by 5 tons per year = 3.5years! During the production of each car, CO2 is set free, by using energy for steel production, the energy for the production tools, etc. Even more so, wisdom concludes that market forces should be allowed to determine which manufacturer wins out. I plan on buying an EV as my next car because the technology is coming into its own. They carry around multiple Gallons/Liters of one of the most flammable liquids we know how to produce, and many are kept on the road long past their expected lifespan and in poor repair. I built my own electric powered fat tire mountain bike. (Ha). Another conclusion of the study is that about half the emissions arising from the production of raw materials and half the production of the battery factory. A piece of cloth can sustainably substitute for all of these needs. Or Most cars will run just fine for that long, or that you can’t get a new pair of jeans, a TV, a boat or shoes until they wear out? Around half of the emissions from battery production come from the electricity used in manufacturing and assembling the batteries. Managing grid energy demand is hard at the moment – electric vehicles make that much harder. Do the math. 0-55 mph in 4 seconds, who cares about co2? In the end it’s A.O.K. Did you know, Badger, that BP, that’s “British Petroleum”, was the largest producer of PV solar panels worldwide in 2007? Grant, This is not an ICE to EV comparison. Don’t forget the energy required for operational recharge over the 8 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17xh_VRrnMU At the back in the middle between what looks like two electric motors you have a rather conventional differential. This analysis is not correct for Tesla. But the biggest problem with widespread use of electric vehicles is the total transformation of grid technology required to make them work. Now, whether a control freak warmist would think so is another matter entirely. Oops, I glossed over the ‘hybrid’ part. Surely the point is that the CO2 emissions from making a EV without a battery are going to be very similar to those for making a comparable FF car. That 5.3 tonnes does not look so bad, but that 17.5 tonnes is already nearly twice the Audi, and that is only the battery. The study also doesn’t directly compare the manufacturing costs in co2 or MJ/kWh to traditional battery manufacturing. Tesla gets about $7500 per car on the federal subside, Kalifornia has unbelievable corporate welfare perks in the pot for Tesla as well. And the Tesla must be recharged by plugging it into and electrical outlet that is powered by a coal or oil fueled power plant. When it comes to the debate on global warming and what should or should not be done, Musk is not the enemy, and electric cars will be viable in my life time as a reliable means of transport. I love the way electric car enthusiasts are so immune to real world data. That would be well over 1,000 cycles for an electric since the battery would almost never be run completely down before charging. That’s not why you buy an electric car. Production quantities are something else. (I am equating the electric motor in the Tesla with the starter motor and alternator, resource-wise) It’s mature technology and well understood with the biggest downside being the lead and the sulfuric acid electrolyte. You get about 20 lbs of CO2 per gallon of gas, so using your yearly estimate of 600 gallons, we get 11.53 gallons/week which generates about 230 lbs of CO2 week for the ICD. It has 260,000+ miles on the odometer, and still functions nicely. It looked like an odd figure. “In Sweden, the power production is mainly of fossil-nuclear and hydropower why lower emissions had been achieved.” It depends, of course, on how that electricity is generated. The report shows that battery manufacturing leads to high CO2 emissions. I could care less how much or little CO2 they produce.I am more interested in how much torque the produce. “Model S Specifications. Since large batteries are just an assembly of small cells it seems pretty obvious that manufacturing emissions will grow almost linearly with the size of the battery. It’s natural gas, coal, nuclear or renewable, to name the top 4. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3. Three seconds at 1g (10 m/s^2) would take you to 30m/s. RACookPE1978 June 20, 2017 at 11:21 am Mike the Morlock. Donald! are so gung-ho to come out with driverless cars virtually NO ONE wants–for fleet applications (Uber, etc.) The difference then is the consumption of each: the Tesla consuming electricity to charge the battery and gas for the F150. Without getting too pedantic, you should subtract out the carbon dioxide emissions required to manufacture the gasoline powered cars to get an adequate comparison. For a battery EV, 46% of its total carbon footprint is generated at the factory, before it has travelled a single mile. On another web site I found this link to the original study.